Blog & Latest Updates
Fly Fishing Articles
Insects by Common Name
> > On the Origins of Stimulators and Origins in General
| Entoman | October 28th, 2011, 5:29 pm | |
 Posts: 2604 | Spence - To avoid the unintentional hijack of a great thread and have a lot of cool stuff obfuscated by a title that doesn't connect to it, a new topic is in order - Softhackle: ...Jim (Slattery) was also responsible for creating the famous Stimulator, although he rarely receives credit for it. Entoman: Interesting.. There must be quite a back-story to this. I must admit that many knowledgeable anglers don't give much credit for this pattern to Mr. Kaufmann, anyway. It's a little hard to argue that hook substitutions and less dense hackle over head dubbing constitute a different pattern. It's nothing more than a variation of the Improved Sofa Pillow that preceded it by at least a decade, perhaps more. Oldredbarn: "Nothing new under the sun." That's for sure! The Improved Sofa Pillow ended up the "Mattress Thrasher" along the Au Sable, which is a variation of the Stimulator etc...We just don't palmer a hackle through the abdomen so the fly 's body rests on the water. We leave out the tail as well. A great fly in different versions to rattle up Brown's when the stoneflies are about. http://www.danica.com/flytier/swilliams/swilliams.htm Spence, Ha! This is the same fly I was shown back in the late '90's by a top guide on the Snake that claimed it was his! It is deadly and one of those flies I won't go without. The differences are it's tied on a reg. length hook, has a black abdomen and olive thorax and has unique pale orange colored rubber-legs tied "X" style under the thorax dubbing. Brook trout in Maine, Cutts on the Snake and Gros Ventre, Browns on the upper Green, Sierra lakes; they all love it. This variation also has the grizzly hackle left untrimmed. Overall a little stockier looking than your link shows. But it is the same name and general design. Wow! Regards, Kurt | |
| "It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman | ||
| Entoman | October 28th, 2011, 6:05 pm | |
Posts: 2604 | Photos of how I tie the three patterns mentioned: Improved Sofa Pillow  Orange Stimulator  Thrasher  | |
| "It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman | ||
| Softhackle | October 28th, 2011, 6:58 pm | |
 Site Editor Wellsville, NYPosts: 540 | Kurt, Interesting comparison. I do not know exactly when Jim first tied the Stimulator, and I have no idea how it became popular or how it was "discovered". This reminds me of another conversation I had with a tier regarding substituting different materials in a pattern. Does that change the fly making it completely different? A close examination of wet flies often finds flies tied exactly the same except for one element like the hackle. Does this make a new fly? I have tied a fly and posted it another forum and almost at the exact same time had Hans Weilenmann post a fly that was so close in appearance and materials, they looked almost like twins. Creative minds often think alike. In art, many times, artists base their art on previous works. Mark PS-  My Silver King  Hans' Silver Bullet Only a minor difference | |
| "I have the highest respect for the skilled wet-fly fisherman, as he has mastered an art of very great difficulty." Edward R. Hewitt Flymphs, Soft-hackles and Spiders: http://www.troutnut.com/libstudio/FS&S/index.html | ||
| Oldredbarn | October 28th, 2011, 10:52 pm | |
 Posts: 2608 | This stuff is funny in a way. I think some guys can come up with similar things without knowing each other, but some of these guys from the 70's or so were fishing out west, and may have met each other here or there, and once one guy sees something that interests him the cat's out of the bag then...They pretend to have secret flies, but can't help themselves from showing someone their creation. Think about how exponentially (sp?) (Jason, please get me a spell-check for Christmas on TroutNut) things have changed with the internet! There are no secrets. Pre "Matress Thrasher"...Not sure of the story behind the name...I have heard a couple different stories and don't want to muck things up here...When I was shown my mentor's version he simply called one the Orange-Throated Stone & another the Yellow-Throated Stone. The OTS was tied on a 9672 #12 and the YTS was on a 9671 #16...I tie a version for the Little Olive Stone we see on the Au Sable in late May, but you will have to fish with me sometime to see that one...:) Many years ago, before I stated tying my own, my buddy was fairly unconcerned with showing me stuff...Once I started to spend some time starring at a particular bug, he became more cautious...I have told the story elsewhere about his swearing me to silence for a year about a fly. He was getting ready for a trip out west in the late 90's and showed me his hopper/cricket pattern...I committed it to memory and when I got home I wrote down everything I could remember...I still have my drawings...:) So secret flies remain so for only so long and their history becomes blurred almost from the get-go. Spence | |
| "Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively "Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood | ||
| Entoman | October 28th, 2011, 11:04 pm | |
Posts: 2604 | LOL :):) Now that's funny! That had to have you guys looking to see if you had a mouse in your pocket.:)Creative minds often think alike. In art, many times, artists base their art on previous works. Yes it's amazing how the human mind creates along similar lines. Tankera flies and North Country's evolved very similarly a world apart. (unless the Brits imported the idea during the colonial era, I don't know) Kurt | |
| "It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman | ||
| Jmd123 | October 29th, 2011, 12:42 am | |
 Posts: 2611 | Gentlemen, I am most envious of your photography set-ups that allow you to show your beautiful flies on this site. Wish I had the same so that I could show my variants of the KBF for all of you! The latest one that's working is a yellow-and-gold, got both perch and rainbows on it recently in a local lake that I have been exploring and which has made an appearance in some of my recently posted photos... Jonathon | |
| No matter how big the one you just caught is, there's always a bigger one out there somewhere... | ||
| Entoman | October 29th, 2011, 1:16 am | |
Posts: 2604 | Mark - Hans has an interesting head style on his flies. It's reminiscent of the truncated cones you see on the classic gut-eyed Dee strip-wings and full dressed salmon flies. Very elegant. Your Silver King reminds me that one of my favorite combinations is peacock herl and a maroon thread head. I came up with a fly almost 30 years ago to fill a niche that has this combination. It was my "go to" fly for working the banks of several favorite lakes and ponds in particular conditions. I don't like to fish stillwaters out of a float tube, so if I'm not in a boat I prefer to sneak around in my green wellies using the brush or whatever for concealment and work the cruise lanes. On those bright days without a breath of air movement this fly is deadly when hung a foot or two below a dry fly and flipped out into the lane well in advance of the fishes timed swim-by. This is sight fishing at it's most exciting. Often, guys in their float tubes trolling with wooly buggers are puzzled by my behavior. I've had more than a few paddle over to ask what I was "using". Unfortunately, since the fly was only part of the deal, telling didn't help them much... What does it imitate? A scud? Snail? Most likely a drowned beetle (hence its name) but probably all of them, at least suggestively. Why the big maroon head? I have no idea. These were years before glass beads and I just liked the look. The fish seem to agree. The hackle fan on top came about for an interesting reason. A full hackle seemed to disturb the outline and a beard made them sink upside down. No hackle didn't seem to excite the fish as much, so I gave them what they seemed to prefer. I must admit that the first fly to go on now for this purpose is a little glass bead job with a flashabou shell-back and a single strand of crystal flash trailing. But there are lots of days where they are put off by the flashy stuff, even on a fly as tiny as this. That's when this number is pulled out. The picture doesn't show it well, but the body is hard to find rich bronze. The tails are bright green sword. It is an interesting contrast with the big maroon head. Wet Peacock Beetle  | |
| "It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman | ||
| Jmd123 | October 29th, 2011, 1:23 am | |
Posts: 2611 | Kurt, have you ever tried a kayak? Almost as mobile as a float tube and much quicker to get around in, plus you can bring more stuff with you... Nice peacock "critter" by the way...whatever it imitates! Jonathon | |
| No matter how big the one you just caught is, there's always a bigger one out there somewhere... | ||
| Entoman | October 29th, 2011, 2:37 am | |
Posts: 2604 | Hi Jonathon - Yes, I have friends that swear by them. But, nah... For stillwaters, I'm a pram guy now. If I hike in I prefer to fish from the bank. I've fished from canoes for a large part of my life though. My last one was a Navarro River Osprey. It was a real 16 ft. grayhound. Cherry ribs, nice woven seats, forest green gel coat. Had them make it for me out of kevlar instead of the normal fiberglass. It only weighed 37 lb's! Boy, it was beautiful... It broke my heart to sell it, but you get to an age where comfort becomes more important (which is code for an old fart unwilling to admit he's too stiff to kneel comfortably for very long). No, I'm afraid there's no float tubes, kayaks, hang gliders, pontoon boats (with or without onboard refrigerators and color TV's) fold-up catamarans, or hover-craft in my future. I guess besides being an old fart, I'm an old stick in the mud as well.. I would like a teleporter if they ever come out with one.:) Regards, Kurt | |
| "It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman | ||
| Softhackle | October 29th, 2011, 8:33 am | |
Site Editor Wellsville, NYPosts: 540 | Kurt, Red and shades of it coupled with peacock herl have always been a successful combination for flies. Think of the Royal Coachman, Gray Hackle, and Brown Hackle. All good flies. I would think your fly resembles a midge pupae. It looks quite small. Yes, Hans is a particularly gifted tier. His flies are magnificent, and his use of materials exciting. He has access to very unusual stuff which makes for unique flies. He loves small heads on his flies. One of Hans' most successful patterns is his CDC and Elk. It is loved and used by many. Mark | |
| "I have the highest respect for the skilled wet-fly fisherman, as he has mastered an art of very great difficulty." Edward R. Hewitt Flymphs, Soft-hackles and Spiders: http://www.troutnut.com/libstudio/FS&S/index.html | ||
| Adirman | October 29th, 2011, 9:08 am | |
 Posts: 505 | Kayaks are more versatile and an easier carry but the downside is, harder to park and fish when you get to a hot spot. I usually try to sort of"pull over" in the bush and cast. Hard to to do in Adirondack streams though where you literally can't get out cuz its too overgrown on the sides or, too boggy. | |
| Sayfu | October 29th, 2011, 9:26 am | |
| Posts: 560 | Those sure are some beautiful flies. It has appeared to me that when you take photos of a fly up close, the hackle always appears to be poorly wrapped in appearance..(ie) hackles out of place, and an unorganized look. These do not. My way of getting a small, buggy looking head, is to deploy an Xsmall plastic bead be it a peacock bead, a black, or brown. Even on dryflies. Eliminates crowding the head, creates a bug looking head, and easy to tie off materials behind. And gives all flies a new name...mine! :) Entomen..a pram guy? I'm sure you know of Steve Raymond? He was strictly a pram guy. I remember when he was a guest fisher on a tv episode, and one of the hosts of the show I knew quite well. They were promoting a pontoon boat, and Steve would not fish out of it insisting he fish out of his pram. I know why. I fished a small, shallow lake recently, and had fabulous fishing, and big rainbows virtually every cast for two hours! I could stand up, and see cruising fish in my driftboat, while the float tubers, and pontooners could not. I'd holler to them when fish would cruise their way. When I could not see fish when the breeze came up, I could shotgun cast 360 degrees very easily standing up in my boat. | |
| Entoman | October 29th, 2011, 2:32 pm | |
Posts: 2604 | Mark -I would think your fly resembles a midge pupae. It looks quite small. It is, sorry for not listing the size. Its a short shank 18. I also tie them in 20's. I try to stay away from them though unless Mr. trout veers off from the 18's and other flies I've tried first.:) As to Midges, I know some can be surprisingly fat, but this fly presents a pretty thick profile. But who knows? It's probable that it's just a buggy thing that spells life, but in a size that fits with the trout's furtive attitude under blue bird dead calm conditions. And trout love peacock!:) Sayfu - Yeah, macro-photography sure shows the blemishes. Frankly, they are too close from an aesthetic point of view, but I'm set up for bugs and haven't worked out getting a little further back yet. Sending them as smaller photos is probably the easiest, but I haven't figured that out either. If I were doing these shots for publication, I'd tie especially for the photos and primp them under magnification first. These flies are right out of my box, and many if not most have already been fished and perhaps even chewed a little. What's kind of fun is that I have no real idea of what they'll look like until I see them on my computer screen. Kurt | |
| "It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman | ||
| Entoman | October 29th, 2011, 3:03 pm | |
Posts: 2604 | Sayfu - I know why. I fished a small, shallow lake recently, and had fabulous fishing, and big rainbows virtually every cast for two hours! I could stand up, and see cruising fish in my driftboat, while the float tubers, and pontooners could not. I'd holler to them when fish would cruise their way. When I could not see fish when the breeze came up, I could shotgun cast 360 degrees very easily standing up in my boat. Yep.. Also standing up to swish the weeds with a D-net looking for critters. But there's comfort and practical reasons too. I need to move around and stretch my legs a lot (back & knee arthritis). I also bring my bug stuff (nets, trays and what-have-you) and multiple rods. Also included are soft sided insulated and waterproof lunch boxes & gear boxes (so I don't have to wear a back-breaking vest) and a clear waterproof duffel for extra clothes and rain gear - Hard to do all the this in any other rig or flotation device. Moving water is a different can of worms - can't beat a drift boat for that. Kurt | |
| "It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman | ||
| TNEAL | October 29th, 2011, 7:34 pm | |
| GRAYLING. MICHIGAN Posts: 278 | The threasher reminds me of Earl Madsen's skunk... a fly tied with rubber legs many, many years ago. It was common in my neck of the woods when I was a kid in the early 50's. Anyone know where rubber legs on trout flies originated? How about the parachute style? Anyone know where that started? | |
| Entoman | October 29th, 2011, 8:06 pm | |
Posts: 2604 | Tim - Thanks for the input. Mark - Your point just keeps being made. | |
| "It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman | ||
| Oldredbarn | October 29th, 2011, 11:09 pm | |
Posts: 2608 | How about the parachute style? Tim, Not sure about the rubber legs, but in terms of the parachute..."William A Bush of Detroit applied for a patent on the parachute design in 1931." Datus Proper, "What the Trout Said" p191. He took his info from a book by Harold Smedley, "Fly Patterns and Their Origins". Datus then goes on to give Swisher/Richards credit for its popularity from their work in the 70's. I have seen some where else about a parachute hook with a little wire post actually as part of the hook. Kurt, Your bumping in to a "Thrasher" fly that is tied in a similar fashion to ours here is interesting. The longer shank hook is usually used to cover the stones with the Au Sable version. Your tie has, to me, more of a caddis feel to it...When the Michigan version is tied, and Tim could explain it better no doubt, the technique used tries to have the deer hair wing lay out flatter and not so flared. Some times I think it's the choice of deer hair that helps here. The master of deer hair is Chris Helms (Toledo Ohio), but a good friend of Tim and myself, Jerry Regan, of Grayling is about as particular when it comes to hair selection as they can come. As much as I thought I could know, I was surprised just how picky some commercial tyers are when it comes to hair, and how much more there is to it. So I learned from those two! Tim & Kurt...I will have to PM you two sometime some info on the "Mattress Thrasher" and some very interesting variations of it... Tim...Are you going to tell us maybe that it was Earl Madsen in terms of rubber legs? :) The snarly/sulky personalities of our resident Browns have led to some very interesting "searching" flies up there in northern Michigan. I think that some of the first ever plantings in the US of the German Browns were in northern MI...PM maybe? Sometime in the late 1800's...We have had to deal with their pouty ways for a long, long, time...:) Spence | |
| "Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively "Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood | ||
| TNEAL | October 30th, 2011, 8:55 am | |
| GRAYLING. MICHIGAN Posts: 278 | Yes, browns were first planted in Michigan's PM sometime in the mid 1880's.... Earl's skunk is the first I know of with rubber legs; was wondering if anyone knew of anything before that. It's also very true that all deer hair is not created equal. It takes some shopping (or shooting, scraping, drying, etc.) to find the various types that lend themselves well to fly style. Some flares quite a bit, other portions do not.We need hair from an early season deer for certain patterns; from the head for others, etc. | |
| Sayfu | October 30th, 2011, 9:19 am | |
| Posts: 560 | Biggest violation of representing a new pattern that I can remember was in a NW fly ID booklet. A short story was told before the fly was ID'd, and an angler that often accompanied the author was given stardom status as an angler who could ID and make the right fly choice/presentation. ON an occasion he chose a dry caddis pattern over the mayfly that was in abundance. He tied on an elk-haired caddis pattern that he had tied using a deer hair wing instead of the elk hair wing...the pattern was given a name, and identified as his original. | |
| Softhackle | October 30th, 2011, 10:26 am | |
Site Editor Wellsville, NYPosts: 540 | In the dry fly plates in Trout I have seen a parachute called a gyro. I believe that book was published in 1938. So, they were around already. Yes, I recall those hooks with the little posts on them. The thing is, ideas often re-surface. The idea might catch on once again for a new generation of fly fisherman. Many people do not realize that what we call "soft-hackles" are actually very old flies unless one reads books describing their long history. Mark | |
| "I have the highest respect for the skilled wet-fly fisherman, as he has mastered an art of very great difficulty." Edward R. Hewitt Flymphs, Soft-hackles and Spiders: http://www.troutnut.com/libstudio/FS&S/index.html | ||
Quick Reply
You have to be logged in to post on the forum. It's this easy:
Related Discussions
| Title | Replies | Last Reply |
Re: Three Trouble Makers at the Midwest Fly Fishing Expo the past weekend In the Photography Board by Oldredbarn | 3 | Mar 11, 2014 by TNEAL |
| Exotic furs? In Fly Tying by Roguerat | 0 | |
| Emergence In Brachycentrus appalachia Caddisfly Adult by Martinlf | 0 | |
| Re: Newbie In the Insect Order Trichoptera by GennieS | 2 | May 26, 2009 by Shawnny3 |
| Mosquito Adams In Fly Tying by Mcflyangler | 0 | |
| Re: Jonathon's Killer Bass Fly (KBF) recipe and instructions In Fly Tying by Jmd123 | 2 | Oct 18, 2010 by Jmd123 |
| Re: Trico emergers In the Mayfly Genus Tricorythodes by Bwoklink | 6 | Sep 11, 2020 by Martinlf |
| Re: BWO Floating Nymph Ideas In Fly Tying by Feathers5 | 7 | Mar 7, 2013 by PaulRoberts |
| Re: JONATHON IS BACK! In General Discussion by Jmd123 | 1 | Jul 1, 2009 by Martinlf |
| Re: Good basic materials? In Fly Tying by Dillo | 3 | Oct 22, 2015 by Roguerat |
Troutnut.com is copyright © 2004-2024 Jason
Neuswanger (email Jason). See my FAQ for information about use of my images.
privacy policy
privacy policy